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I couldn't care less if Champagne is dead to some folks here.

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There's plenty of other areas that I am obsessively geeky about. Champagne is my guilty pleasure.

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I think that you realize the ridiculousness of citing Bordeaux as a bastion of terroir.

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and why the hell not ? the fact that many wines are as good and as distinctive as they remain despite what's being done to them is substantial evidence of terroir. In fact, given the additional global warming factor, such evidence could be considered by such establishment as WT, ahem, an Inconvenient Truth.

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In fact, given the additional global warming factor, such evidence could be considered by such establishment as WT, ahem, an Inconvenient Truth.

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There is no editorial voice, philosophical agenda or mission statement here.

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Moreover, there is no cabal or conspiracy.

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In fact, given the additional global warming factor, such evidence could be considered by such establishment as WT, ahem, an Inconvenient Truth.

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Please note that Wine therapy is not an establishment, but a collection of individuals working through their mostly divergent issues. There is no editorial voice, philosophical agenda or mission statement here.

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I was eagerly awaiting the source of imminent denial. Now I know whom to address directly. Are you also not an establishment?

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I would argue that the number of young, inventive, even brilliant growers is NOT strong. Of 2124 growers in Champagne I could maybe name....what...10-15 at most that are making real wine that express terroir. So less than 1% of the growers are making real wine....and you don't think Champagne is in trouble?

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You are welcome to disagree with preponderance.

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So, with (1) dispatched, let's on to (3): What processes is it that you think make champagne inert w/r/t terroir? From what I know of it, there's a bunch of industrial-ish grape growing, followed by a couple different fermentations, and then the dosage. Other than using sugar to mask wine flaws (or sell to particular palates), what's unnatural here?

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Nathan - hoenstly I didn't take it as a personal affront. It just doesn't matter to me, as I love Champagne. It's an area where I pretty much suspend geeky intellectualizing, preferring to just sit back and enjoy the wine for the sheer sake of pleasure.

There's plenty of other areas that I am obsessively geeky about. Champagne is my guilty pleasure.

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You are welcome to disagree with preponderance.

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Excellent, and thank you.

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If a winery engages in shitty viticulture and consistently makes the best wine of a given type in an entire appellation, which of its techniques should be discarded or changed in order to make wine more like that of its neighbors?

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You are welcome to disagree with preponderance.

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Excellent, and thank you.

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I hope you don't mean that as snarkily as it reads.

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Oh dear, oh dear. Not at all. I meant it sincerely. It's nice to have agreeable disagreement for once. ((Sigh. A man can't even offer praise and thanks without being second-guessed.))

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To me, there seem to be too many limiting factors for terroir to really shine through the way it does in other places.

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I think terroir must be actively smothered. The folks in Champagne, of course, are motivated to do nothing whatsoever to assist -- Claude's point is quite well-taken -- but sometimes it comes through, anyway. If a vigneron actually tries to grow good grapes and use good wood and good cultures... well!

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As an aside, what do you think about the terroir of sherry and sous voile Jura wines?

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I dislike heavily oxidized wines intensely. Lopez de Heredia whites is about as spoiled as I can stand. But, as to whether there is terroir... probably, yes, there is (just not for me).

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But yes, Champagne can show terroir, it just depends on how specific a terroir you want it to display. An aggressively dosaged wine may not do a good job though.

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Dosage is only one factor. There are so many other facets of wine-making in Champagne that are so markedly different from elevage in other places considered to be paradigms of terroir.

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I will take all the bottles of 90, 96, Bollinger Grand Annees that any of the participants on this thread don't want. I know it's from a large house that must produce only industrial swill but no one has ever accused me of having good taste. Bollinger has no trace of terroir that I can identify, who gives a shit!!!!

Lou Kessler

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Edited by - rieslingfan on 03/30/2008 19:34:28

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I will take all the bottles of 90, 96, Bollinger Grand Annees that any of the participants on this thread don't want. I know it's from a large house that must produce only industrial swill but no one has ever accused me of having good taste. Bollinger has no trace of terroir that I can identify, who gives a shit!!!!

Lou Kessler

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Funny, I just had the two side by side, in January. No contest.

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I will take all the bottles of 90, 96, Bollinger Grand Annees that any of the participants on this thread don't want. I know it's from a large house that must produce only industrial swill but no one has ever accused me of having good taste. Bollinger has no trace of terroir that I can identify, who gives a shit!!!!

Lou Kessler

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Funny, I just had the two side by side, in January. No contest.

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A tangential question:

If a winery engages in shitty viticulture and consistently makes the best wine of a given type in an entire appellation, which of its techniques should be discarded or changed in order to make wine more like that of its neighbors?

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Edited by - Jeff Grossman on 03/30/2008 21:46:17

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You are welcome to disagree with preponderance.

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Excellent, and thank you.

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I hope you don't mean that as snarkily as it reads.

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Oh dear, oh dear. Not at all. I meant it sincerely. It's nice to have agreeable disagreement for once. ((Sigh. A man can't even offer praise and thanks without being second-guessed.))

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Of course, the previous statement is entirely devoid of irony -- or is it?

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Who can say?

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Regarding Sherry, I have heard it said that most plantings of Palomino are to be found in the albariza soil which is considered congenial to it, while PX and Moscatel vines are usually planted in barros or arenas.

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I will take all the bottles of 90, 96, Bollinger Grand Annees that any of the participants on this thread don't want. I know it's from a large house that must produce only industrial swill but no one has ever accused me of having good taste. Bollinger has no trace of terroir that I can identify, who gives a shit!!!!

Lou Kessler

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Monkies have magical powers.

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I will take all the bottles of 90, 96, Bollinger Grand Annees that any of the participants on this thread don't want. I know it's from a large house that must produce only industrial swill but no one has ever accused me of having good taste. Bollinger has no trace of terroir that I can identify, who gives a shit!!!!

Lou Kessler

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Funny, I just had the two side by side, in January. No contest.

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Well IMO for drinking now the '90 is the winner by a country mile (kiolmeter?). The '96 is all promise now.

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I will take all the bottles of 90, 96, Bollinger Grand Annees that any of the participants on this thread don't want. I know it's from a large house that must produce only industrial swill but no one has ever accused me of having good taste. Bollinger has no trace of terroir that I can identify, who gives a shit!!!!

Lou Kessler

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Funny, I just had the two side by side, in January. No contest.

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Well IMO for drinking now the '90 is the winner by a country mile (kiolmeter?). The '96 is all promise now.

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Not nearly as much promise as we were hoping for! But it could have been just one bottle, not that there was anything obviously off about it.

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That said, I've always been told by the bigger Champagne houses (both mega-corporate and non-) that a large part of their blending is based on the individualized characteristics brought by each of the different terroirs, which are vinified separately for this purpose. I've sat through lectures on what each of those sites bring, though I've since forgotten them and didn't write them down anywhere; IIRC there's a rundown in Gerald Asher's Vineyard Tales, and it's probably found elsewhere as well. (Checking.) Yes, it's also in Stevenson's Encylopedia; no surprise there.

Obviously, you wouldn't see the terroir in the finished product, which is why we're mostly talking about small grower/producers here. But I think to answer the terroir question, we can't just look at these single-plot wines, but instead have to look at the base material that makes up many of the blends. So while I can't say I have the experience to identify the signatures of the different terroirs, the blenders seem to believe they can.

Any good wine can be taken from either side of the coin: its intellectual pleasure or its hedonistic pleasure. Both should be there; often are.

Though I agree that there is a kind of "yellow brick road" happy effect from champagne, even of the unthinking stripe. Maybe like the joy of sleeping with a highly attractive but utterly shallow person.

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Hrm... I think you're doing it a disservice!

Any good wine can be taken from either side of the coin: its intellectual pleasure or its hedonistic pleasure. Both should be there; often are.

Though I agree that there is a kind of "yellow brick road" happy effect from champagne, even of the unthinking stripe. Maybe like the joy of sleeping with a highly attractive but utterly shallow person.

Edited by - winegirl on 03/31/2008 13:11:27

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Actually when I am drinking anything like Salon I tend to intellectualize the experience, if only to justify the cost. (Laura just guards her share of the bottle while finding that happy place.)

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I think Lou, rather than missing the point, is supporting David's: the terroir/no terroir argument might be largely irrelevant when it comes to enjoying Champagne. As it is for other styles of wine, perhaps? Sherry? Port? I'm sure everyone has a list.

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Monkies have magical powers.

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Terroir can be largely irrelevant to enjoying wine. We happen to intellectuaize wine, and as such it means something more to us than an enjoyable drink. That is what makes terroir important.

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Hrm... I think you're doing it a disservice!

Any good wine can be taken from either side of the coin: its intellectual pleasure or its hedonistic pleasure. Both should be there; often are.

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The question is whether Champagne can show terroir in the strong sense.

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Never a Peter Liem around when you need one.

Anyhow, he's doing a whole book on this subject, so if he gets back to work and applies himself, there may be something to slake the intellectual thirst available soon.

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Monkies have magical powers.

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Now you are missing the point. This has nothing to do with my list. It is a larger question of the terroir hypothesis. [...] How any particular person chooses to enjoy their Champagne is completely irrelevant to the point I'm trying to get at.

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The question is whether Champagne can show terroir in the strong sense.

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I dunno. Pop open a Vieilles Vignes de Cramant and a Terre de Vertus tonight.

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Now you are missing the point. This has nothing to do with my list. It is a larger question of the terroir hypothesis. [...] How any particular person chooses to enjoy their Champagne is completely irrelevant to the point I'm trying to get at.

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Well, no. We all get your point. I just don't think it's helpful -- especially on this forum -- to insist that everyone must stick to the parameters of your argument exactly as you'd wish them to. You've got your blog for that. Lou and David know what you're arguing, and why, and how. They just don't care, or at least care less than you. Isn't it OK for them to say so? Personally, I'd hate to see us start rigidly controlling thread drift here.

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I think terroir vs. typicity is a fascinating debate as well. But it's hard to bring light to the debate without controlled experiments, which are highly unlikely...especially somewhere like Chambolle vs. Vosne.

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Monkies have magical powers.

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To participate in argument, and to have it be constructive, we have to agree upon the formal properties of argument.

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Pop open a Vieilles Vignes de Cramant and a Terre de Vertus tonight.

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Oh, I know those wines well and have been to the domaine. They are lovely and on my short list and it seems that there is a Cramant signature there that one also get's in Guy Larmandier.

This introduces the old wrinkle, for me at least, about Chambolle. Do I like them more than Vosne wines because the terroir there produces such minerally, lacey wines or is there a culture in Chambolle among vingerons that produces that style, whereas the paradigm in Vosne is more of a Jayer/Meo/Rouget opulence?

I realize this shit might be boring to others, but it is endlessly fascinating to me.

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My take: when the Champenoise determined that Champagne would be essentially a process of blending (vineyards, cuvees, vintages, varieties) they basically forsook the idea of terroir showing through. Add to that all the processes that Champagne goes through, and you have very little argument for terroir left.

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To participate in argument, and to have it be constructive, we have to agree upon the formal properties of argument. These aren't my wishes or feeling, but a categorical necessity for getting anywhere. Look, you've made me be all fucking pedantic, I hate that.

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Actually you just sound a heck of a lot like Spock in Star Trek IV.

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This introduces the old wrinkle, for me at least, about Chambolle. Do I like them more than Vosne wines because the terroir there produces such minerally, lacey wines or is there a culture in Chambolle among vingerons that produces that style, whereas the paradigm in Vosne is more of a Jayer/Meo/Rouget opulence?

Monkies have magical powers.

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Edited by - claude kolm on 03/31/2008 16:41:37

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Why generalize about *anything*?

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Can you state the question in a more general form? :^)