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 '97 Thierry Allemand Cornas sans souffre
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etexier

France
47 Posts
Posted - 01/20/2008 :  11:14:50  Show profile
I would be proud to make a wine like this. Even only once in my life.

Purity is beyond words.

Up to '91 Gentaz standards. Could become one of the very few lengendary post parker northern rhone. IMHO.

A winemaking lesson for all the cloudy, leasy, awfully volatile, dirty sans souffres I have to taste so often to please the politicaly correct fashionable parisian sommeliers and cavistes.

'91 la Mouline poured by a good friend for diner on the same day.
This was unfair.
Like watching Rambo IV right after Mulloland Drive.
Un arrière goût de gachis...

yixin

Singapore
1676 Posts
Posted - 01/20/2008 :  11:21:31  Show profile  Send yixin an ICQ message
Eric - I've only had this twice and I'm not sure either bottle was transcendental in the way you describe (not having had the '91 Gentaz, I think). But I can imagine how unfair it was for the Mouline - poor clumsy wine.

Question is whether any sans souffre could develop for 30-40 years? I like purity in my wines too and there's something enthralling about the best sans souffre wines in their fruit expression but have never had one that has aged well.Go to top of page

etexier

France
47 Posts
Posted - 01/20/2008 :  11:30:10  Show profile
Yixin,

This is a 10 years old wine, showing strictly no sign of weakness.
It is a very low pH wine, due to the wineyard management, the granitic terroir and the vintage.
To my taste and that day, '05 didn't taste that sharp, and I would certainly not bet on it the same way.

Edited by - etexier on 01/20/2008 11:36:53Go to top of page

LarryM


876 Posts
Posted - 01/21/2008 :  12:37:39  Show profile  Visit LarryM's home page
Hi Eric

I went back and searched for my old note on the 97 SS -- found it on the Gang site --
http://www.gangofpour.com/Marche/allemand.html

Tasted "blind" amongst a bunch of other Allemand Sans Souffre bottlings --
1997 Sans Soufree – scents of flowers, roasting meat, blackberries and plums. The black fruit has a sense of being fleshy and vibrant, yet slightly more "tame", or perhaps reserved than the 01’s…as is the case in all the wines tried to this point, they possess a striking minerality, strong tannins and "plus acidity". It has familiar note of strong coffee toward the finish. I guessed this to be perhaps a 1998. Mike wanted the record to plainly state that he guessed 1991 – his thinking on this one (and with some of the other older models) was that they were still vital with fruit, but showed significant evolution in how the structure integrated with the whole wine. These unsulphured bottlings have a deceptive freshness about them…perhaps off setting some of the powerful tannin issues at a younger bottle age.

I sipped the '91 Gentaz as well, albeit in a very different setting...marvelous wine, but hard for me to make any comparison.

I likely base my opinion on too few experiences, but I have little worries about the long term progress of Allemand SS bottlings. Thirty years is probably a crapshoot for any wines these days, but 15 or 20 years does not sound like a great risk. I'd be surprised if they did not still have that glorious "fresh" element.

Be well,
Larry

PS -- love the Rambo IV analogy!

quote:
I would be proud to make a wine like this. Even only once in my life.

Purity is beyond words.

Up to '91 Gentaz standards. Could become one of the very few lengendary post parker northern rhone. IMHO.

A winemaking lesson for all the cloudy, leasy, awfully volatile, dirty sans souffres I have to taste so often to please the politicaly correct fashionable parisian sommeliers and cavistes.

'91 la Mouline poured by a good friend for diner on the same day.
This was unfair.
Like watching Rambo IV right after Mulloland Drive.
Un arrière goût de gachis...


Edited by - LarryM on 01/21/2008 12:38:05Go to top of page

Lyle F.

Tuvalu
214 Posts
Posted - 01/21/2008 :  18:43:32  Show profile  Visit Lyle F.'s home page
Eric,

Great stuff....

Glad I have some of the 2004. I had a '99 Lapierre Morgon SS just recently that was stunning.

Now where does Inland Empire relate in the Rambo/La Mouline/Allemand/Mulholland Drive hierarchy?

For me it is the "cloudy, leasy, awfully volatile, dirty sans souffres" in film form.Go to top of page

MLawton


543 Posts
Posted - 01/21/2008 :  19:55:35  Show profile
I think Inland Empire = Coturri.Go to top of page
SFJoe

USA
6192 Posts
Posted - 01/21/2008 :  23:25:51  Show profile  Visit SFJoe's home page
I had a spectacular glass of the '01 last week, for which thanks, Marty.

I think these wines are fragile, and getting them out to the Gang carries many more risks and pitfalls than getting them to Eric.

But the good bottles of these are head-spinning, I quite agree. I wish I'd had a '97, or been able to say anything like:

quote:
Tasted "blind" amongst a bunch of other Allemand Sans Souffre bottlings
.

Eric, how important is the no-SO2, and how important is the old vines, great cellar hygeine, and so on that Allemand practices, do you suppose? I bet if you dosed these to 25 mg pre-bottling we'd still be mightily impressed. Don't you?Go to top of page

claude kolm

USA
1833 Posts
Posted - 01/22/2008 :  00:04:14  Show profile  Visit claude kolm's home page
Thierry does sans souffre better and more skilfully than anyone else. He says -- and bear in mind that I think he is a true believer in this respect -- that his unsulfured wines age better than his sulfured wines. With respect to 1997, if I recall correctly, he said to me that he should have done the whole vintage without sulfur.

Claude Kolm
www.finewinereview.comGo to top of page

SFJoe

USA
6192 Posts
Posted - 01/22/2008 :  00:28:00  Show profile  Visit SFJoe's home page
The question of aging of non-SO2 wines is a fascinating one, and sometime in a few years I look forward to researching and writing about it.Go to top of page
yixin

Singapore
1676 Posts
Posted - 01/22/2008 :  00:50:40  Show profile  Send yixin an ICQ message
Maybe I've been drinking too many hip wines but I can't say that the unsulfured wines I've had give me much confidence. I am somewhat surprised that the bottle retained what I think of as a characteristic freshness of sans souffre wines (assuming that I'm reading all the notes correctly). Never had it last more than a few years in bottle.Go to top of page
Levi D


715 Posts
Posted - 01/22/2008 :  00:58:05  Show profile
quote:
I think these wines are fragile, and getting them out to the Gang carries many more risks and pitfalls than getting them to Eric.

About 2 years ago I worked in a restaurant in NYC that had about a case each of the Allemand '99, '00, and '01 SS bottlings. I personally sold around 8 or so bottles of each of those vintages, and tasted them before serving. I never once encountered a problem. Not one bad bottle. And that was on this side of the pond.Go to top of page

SFJoe

USA
6192 Posts
Posted - 01/22/2008 :  01:47:26  Show profile  Visit SFJoe's home page
quote:
quote:
I think these wines are fragile, and getting them out to the Gang carries many more risks and pitfalls than getting them to Eric.

About 2 years ago I worked in a restaurant in NYC that had about a case each of the Allemand '99, '00, and '01 SS bottlings. I personally sold around 8 or so bottles of each of those vintages, and tasted them before serving. I never once encountered a problem. Not one bad bottle. And that was on this side of the pond.


If we had the archives I could tell you stories.

I think a lot depends on the local distributor. Kermit is obviously importing with care, but then what? I could send you to a store in NYC that has these wines, where I could almost promise you they're fucked. I haven't spent the money to prove it, but I would spend double on a bet with odds.Go to top of page

Levi D


715 Posts
Posted - 01/22/2008 :  03:49:54  Show profile
quote:
quote:
quote:
I think these wines are fragile, and getting them out to the Gang carries many more risks and pitfalls than getting them to Eric.

About 2 years ago I worked in a restaurant in NYC that had about a case each of the Allemand '99, '00, and '01 SS bottlings. I personally sold around 8 or so bottles of each of those vintages, and tasted them before serving. I never once encountered a problem. Not one bad bottle. And that was on this side of the pond.


If we had the archives I could tell you stories.

I think a lot depends on the local distributor. Kermit is obviously importing with care, but then what? I could send you to a store in NYC that has these wines, where I could almost promise you they're fucked. I haven't spent the money to prove it, but I would spend double on a bet with odds.


Well, I have never encountered any storage issues when dealing with Winebow, the KL distributor in NYC. I have never seen a pushed cork or a leaky bottle delivered to me from Winebow. And I can only speak from my own experience, which as I said before, would indicate that Allemand SS bottlings can take a trip to the States in stride.Go to top of page

etexier

France
47 Posts
Posted - 01/22/2008 :  08:26:29  Show profile
quote:
Eric, how important is the no-SO2, and how important is the old vines, great cellar hygeine, and so on that Allemand practices, do you suppose? I bet if you dosed these to 25 mg pre-bottling we'd still be mightily impressed. Don't you?

Joe,

I didn't taste the regular '97 Reynard side by side with the SS.
So I am not able to say that the magical balance and purity of the later is due to the absence of SO2.
But I have very often thought that sulphur-free wines are expressing sulphur-free winemaking caracteristics more than terroir.
This wine proved me I was wrong, and that the cold temperature semi-carbonic method is probably to blame, more than the absence of SO2.
Oddly, ALlemand said that his regular '97s are showing signs of very high acidity (higher than at bottling) perception, right now, something I have experienced in some of my Brézème bottlings.
And therefore will need long aging to get back to their original balance.

I see this wine as an artisan "chef-d'oeuvre" and as an extremely fine expression of terroir, not as a proof of the sans souffre philosophy.Go to top of page

LarryM


876 Posts
Posted - 01/22/2008 :  23:56:20  Show profile  Visit LarryM's home page
quote:

I wish I'd had a '97, or been able to say anything like:

quote:
Tasted "blind" amongst a bunch of other Allemand Sans Souffre bottlings
.

Alas, one of my few cherrished moments in the sun...;-)

quote:

Eric, how important is the no-SO2, and how important is the old vines, great cellar hygeine, and so on that Allemand practices, do you suppose? I bet if you dosed these to 25 mg pre-bottling we'd still be mightily impressed. Don't you?

Not Eric, of course, but I'd certainly go along with this sentiment.

Be well,
LarryGo to top of page

LarryM


876 Posts
Posted - 01/23/2008 :  00:02:50  Show profile  Visit LarryM's home page
quote:
quote:
Eric, how important is the no-SO2, and how important is the old vines, great cellar hygeine, and so on that Allemand practices, do you suppose? I bet if you dosed these to 25 mg pre-bottling we'd still be mightily impressed. Don't you?

Joe,

I didn't taste the regular '97 Reynard side by side with the SS.
So I am not able to say that the magical balance and purity of the later is due to the absence of SO2.
But I have very often thought that sulphur-free wines are expressing sulphur-free winemaking caracteristics more than terroir.
This wine proved me I was wrong, and that the cold temperature semi-carbonic method is probably to blame, more than the absence of SO2.
Oddly, ALlemand said that his regular '97s are showing signs of very high acidity (higher than at bottling) perception, right now, something I have experienced in some of my Brézème bottlings.
And therefore will need long aging to get back to their original balance.

I see this wine as an artisan "chef-d'oeuvre" and as an extremely fine expression of terroir, not as a proof of the sans souffre philosophy.


I know others have done some good work in the ss frame of reference, but Allemand is certainly a whole different animal...I'd agree the results are related to whole package, rather than the greater and lesser levels of Soufee.

Interesting commemnts regarding the Brezeme, as I had another recent "perception" of the prodigious acids...

Be well,
LarryGo to top of page

LarryM


876 Posts
Posted - 01/23/2008 :  00:03:31  Show profile  Visit LarryM's home page
quote:
The question of aging of non-SO2 wines is a fascinating one, and sometime in a few years I look forward to researching and writing about it.

I'll help!Go to top of page

vulgar little monkey

Iceland
2548 Posts
Posted - 01/23/2008 :  15:38:04  Show profile
quote:

But I have very often thought that sulphur-free wines are expressing sulphur-free winemaking caracteristics more than terroir.

I agree completely. Dard & Ribo and Hervé Souhaut are exhibits A & B for the prosecution, as it were.

quote:
This wine proved me I was wrong, and that the cold temperature semi-carbonic method is probably to blame, more than the absence of SO2.

Unless you are very, very careful, you have to practice semi-carbonic in the absence of sulfur, correct.

quote:
Oddly, ALlemand said that his regular '97s are showing signs of very high acidity (higher than at bottling) perception, right now, something I have experienced in some of my Brézème bottlings.
And therefore will need long aging to get back to their original balance.

Interesting. I had the 1997 Reynards at New Years and noted the high perceived acidity. I was intrigued by your (Thierry's) earlier suggestion of the granitic soil as the cause. I think of 1997 as being a blowsy year for the northern Rhône.

quote:

I see this wine as an artisan "chef-d'oeuvre" and as an extremely fine expression of terroir, not as a proof of the sans souffre philosophy.

Not too modern for you?

Monkies have magical powers.Go to top of page

metasapient

Georgia
777 Posts
Posted - 01/23/2008 :  15:55:07  Show profile
quote:
I had a spectacular glass of the '01 last week, for which thanks, Marty.

I intuitively perceived it as a great and important wine, and I second expressions of gratitude to Marty, but it did go right over my head.
What did you think was spectacular about it?
Go to top of page

MLawton


543 Posts
Posted - 01/23/2008 :  16:06:44  Show profile
quote:
Dard & Ribo and Hervé Souhaut are exhibits A & B for the prosecution, as it were.

I'm not ready to blackball them yet, Ive had some iffy D&R bottles, but nothing less than OK from Souhaut. In fact, I had the Souterrone (Rhonish Gamay) from 2003 from Souhaut 2 weeks ago and I thought it was quite good, especially considering the vintage. The basic Souhaut "Syrah" (VdP de L'Ardeche) is nothing special, but certainly a decent, representative Northern Rhonish syrah for a reasonable price. In context of price, it's in with Eric's Cotes du Rhone and less than things like La Rosine, Vin des Amis and Jamet's VdP. And at that price, I'm a buyer.

The Sainte Epire (St. Joseph) I also like, although I've had some bottle variability. I'd rather drink it than "Offerus", for example - or anything from Vins de Vienne. Again, I compare it to Gaillard "Clos de Cuminalle" or Chave's Estate St. Joeseph, or Clape's "Renaissance" or even a Graillot or other decent Crozes (all around $25-30, except the Chave)....I think it fits there both in price and value for me.

Edited by - mlawton on 01/23/2008 16:09:23Go to top of page

jblackwood

Albania
2604 Posts
Posted - 01/23/2008 :  16:17:23  Show profile
quote:
I've had some iffy D&R bottles

Yup. My sampling has not been promising (as to ability to withstand shipping).

Go to top of page

metasapient

Georgia
777 Posts
Posted - 01/23/2008 :  16:23:07  Show profile
quote:
quote:
I've had some iffy D&R bottles

Yup. My sampling has not been promising (as to ability to withstand shipping).


The 2004 St Joe I purchased recently was superb! I am one for one, should I quit while I am ahead? :-)
Go to top of page

MLawton


543 Posts
Posted - 01/23/2008 :  16:27:39  Show profile
quote:
The 2004 St Joe I purchased recently was superb! I am one for one, should I quit while I am ahead? :-)

I'm sure the importer will be happy to hear me make this distinction, but maybe it's not the FR=>NY leg that's the issue. It could be the NY=>elsewhere in the US leg that's caused both John's and my problems?Go to top of page

jblackwood

Albania
2604 Posts
Posted - 01/23/2008 :  17:15:37  Show profile
quote:
I'm sure the importer will be happy to hear me make this distinction

Yeah, happy I'm sure. I thought about using one of my other twelve aliases to make my D&R comment.

Look, my sampling is very, very limited, but I had some 2004s that scared me. I do have more 2004 bottles to sample.

I will report back. Maybe when I am sure the importer will be out of pocket for a while.Go to top of page

Chris Coad

South Sandwich Islands
7932 Posts
Posted - 01/23/2008 :  23:21:57  Show profile  Visit Chris Coad's home page
quote:
I have never encountered any storage issues when dealing with Winebow

True, but some of their employees are clearly on the shady side, borderline characters.

Go to top of page

SFJoe

USA
6192 Posts
Posted - 01/24/2008 :  01:09:19  Show profile  Visit SFJoe's home page
quote:
I'd rather drink it than ... anything from Vins de Vienne.

Now, there's a high bar.Go to top of page
etexier

France
47 Posts
Posted - 01/24/2008 :  01:35:31  Show profile
quote:
Not too modern for you?

Thanks to you NC guys, I have tasted 2005 Molydooker COL since I told you my feelings about the '03Allemand. Even '03 Pavie seems prephyloxera style Bordeaux for me now...Go to top of page

MLawton


543 Posts
Posted - 01/24/2008 :  01:58:18  Show profile
Eric, ever ask Thierry what he himself thinks about his 2003? I'm not sure it was his favorite either.Go to top of page
Oliver


378 Posts
Posted - 01/24/2008 :  02:24:27  Show profile  Visit Oliver's home page
Does no so2 mean none at bottling, or none added at any time?

Edited by - oliver on 01/24/2008 02:24:56Go to top of page

mdavis

USA
35 Posts
Posted - 01/24/2008 :  05:21:23  Show profile
Allemand opened the '97 SS for me, along with the regular bottling in '05...both initially blind.

An eye opening comparison for me.

What I remember was an absolutely startling difference in terms of freshness and aromatics - favoring the SS, of course. I remember also noting that I didn't detect too much ripeness in the wine either, something I associate with many '97s I've had from the region.

One of my heroes.

-mark

--
markGo to top of page

yixin

Singapore
1676 Posts
Posted - 01/24/2008 :  07:15:24  Show profile  Send yixin an ICQ message
quote:
Does no so2 mean none at bottling, or none added at any time?

None at all is my understanding.Go to top of page

claude kolm

USA
1833 Posts
Posted - 01/24/2008 :  10:57:49  Show profile  Visit claude kolm's home page
quote:
quote:
Does no so2 mean none at bottling, or none added at any time?

None at all is my understanding.


Most people who have done the no SO2 have begun to add a little at bottling, e.g., Ponsot, Pacalet. Kermit Lynch has told me that he now asks all his non-SO2 producers except Lapierre to add a little at bottling. I think Allemand still does no SO2 at bottling, though.

Claude Kolm
www.finewinereview.comGo to top of page

Jay Miller

USA
2088 Posts
Posted - 01/24/2008 :  16:14:40  Show profile
quote:

I intuitively perceived it as a great and important wine, and I second expressions of gratitude to Marty, but it did go right over my head.
What did you think was spectacular about it?


I was disappointed on first pour but by the end of the evening it had started to develop some purely layered flavors and and a haunting fragrance. Not as extravagantly magnificent as the nose on the Chave but I would have loved to try it again in another 2 hours.Go to top of page

Skinny

Burkina Faso (Upper Volta)
139 Posts
Posted - 01/24/2008 :  19:22:27  Show profile
quote:
quote:

But I have very often thought that sulphur-free wines are expressing sulphur-free winemaking caracteristics more than terroir.

I agree completely. Dard & Ribo and Hervé Souhaut are exhibits A & B for the prosecution, as it were.


I have not had enough Dard & Ribo to make any broad statements but I think you are barking up the wrong tree. I have had quite a few of Hervé Souhaut wines, in particular, the Souterrone and the St. Ephine and I've never had a bottle that wasn't very good/great and I've had several that were stunning. I kind of thought of the wines as the equivalent of looking out a windshield after someone turned on the defrost. Great purity and separation of flavor components without all the... "cloudy, leasy, awful VA"

Skinny

Edited by - skinny on 01/24/2008 19:35:13Go to top of page

yixin

Singapore
1676 Posts
Posted - 01/24/2008 :  19:31:13  Show profile  Send yixin an ICQ message
VLM is Kane about Dard et Ribo. The wines are delicious and I've never had an off-bottle. I don't think they're made for the long haul, and I don't think they're the best the Rhone has to offer, but they so often have bewitching and extravagant fruit that I find myself hankering for a bottle or two.Go to top of page
Jay Miller

USA
2088 Posts
Posted - 01/24/2008 :  20:20:40  Show profile
I'm also one for one with a positive D&R experience. Don't remember which bottling.Go to top of page
Jeff Grossman


1121 Posts
Posted - 01/27/2008 :  00:01:36  Show profile
Two for two.Go to top of page
Nevadawineaux

USA
194 Posts
Posted - 01/27/2008 :  18:04:39  Show profile
I had the 2005 Dard et Ribo Crozes Hermitage and liked it lot, but as a consumer I'm a little wary about unsulphured wine. If it was $10 a bottle I wouldn't worry about secondary fermentation, but it's not. there have been reports of problems with the St. Joseph.

http://dat.CENSORED.com/bboard/showthread.php?t=149281

Illegitimati non carborundum
Gen. Joe StilwellGo to top of page

Nevadawineaux

USA
194 Posts
Posted - 01/27/2008 :  18:08:34  Show profile
By the way, if the Dard et Ribo Hermitage is bottled unsulphured can it really age like so many Hermitages are supposed to age?


Illegitimati non carborundum
Gen. Joe StilwellGo to top of page

yixin

Singapore
1676 Posts
Posted - 01/27/2008 :  20:10:18  Show profile  Send yixin an ICQ message
I think they can age but I'm worried enough that I drink them within the first 5 years. Haven't really held on to any beyond that, but they seem like they can age. FWIW the makers think we should be drinking them young, if I recall Alice's article (or post?) correctly.Go to top of page
Oliver


378 Posts
Posted - 01/27/2008 :  20:24:13  Show profile  Visit Oliver's home page
quote:
quote:
quote:
Does no so2 mean none at bottling, or none added at any time?

None at all is my understanding.


Most people who have done the no SO2 have begun to add a little at bottling, e.g., Ponsot, Pacalet. Kermit Lynch has told me that he now asks all his non-SO2 producers except Lapierre to add a little at bottling. I think Allemand still does no SO2 at bottling, though.

Claude Kolm
www.finewinereview.com


There's a producer on Etna who makes wines, supposedly excellent, without (as I understand it) any SO2. He uses a special trucking service to get the wines to port. I can see buying a bottle to try, but the idea of trying to transport and store the wines without losing the lot is too scary.

Go to top of page

Mjolnir

Faroe Islands
3152 Posts
Posted - 01/28/2008 :  01:01:55  Show profile  Visit Mjolnir's home page
Is that the "magma" guy who used to post here? Frank C-something? The one who can drink thirty cases of his own wine and not have a hangover, or something along those lines?

Thor Iverson
oenoLogic - the blog & the site & the other blog
Go to top of page

MLawton


543 Posts
Posted - 01/28/2008 :  01:06:22  Show profile
Cornielessen (sp)

http://www.wineanorak.com/magma.htm

Edited by - mlawton on 01/28/2008 01:07:52Go to top of page

Joe Perry

USA
1817 Posts
Posted - 01/28/2008 :  01:25:33  Show profile
Dard et Ribo is my favorite producer of sparkling Rhone wines.Go to top of page
Mjolnir

Faroe Islands
3152 Posts
Posted - 01/28/2008 :  01:59:24  Show profile  Visit Mjolnir's home page
quote:
Cornelissen

Yeah. That's the guy.

Thor Iverson
oenoLogic - the blog & the site & the other blog
Go to top of page

Joe Dressner

USA
2924 Posts
Posted - 01/28/2008 :  10:19:44  Show profile  Visit Joe Dressner's home page
We import Dard et Ribo and have had no problems. Some board members have deemed the wines sans-soufre and they were no doubt bottled without any sulphur in past vintages. This is no longer the case.

We've imported 2004, 2005 and 2006 without any problem.

Has anyone had complaints about those vintages? I would be surprised....

I find the wines floral and charming, not made to age, but beautiful in their youth.

There has been a movement in Europe to pull back from entirely sulfur-free bottlings while continuing to vinify without any SO2. The feeling is that this keeps a greater purity of fruit, while a small does of sulphur, as a necessary evil, is added at the bottling for stability, but without overwhelming the wine.

Edited by - Joe Dressner on 01/28/2008 10:20:42Go to top of page

MLawton


543 Posts
Posted - 01/28/2008 :  12:56:10  Show profile
I had a very bubbly red 2004 St. Joseph once (Louis/Dressner label attached). That is my only bad data point. I've had good bottles, but those were in France. I have 2 more in the cellar and we'll see.

Edited by - mlawton on 01/28/2008 12:56:51Go to top of page

vulgar little monkey

Iceland
2548 Posts
Posted - 01/28/2008 :  13:20:19  Show profile
I want to make it clear that I am not saying that Dard & Ribo make flawed wines. I haven't had a refermenting or any other flawed wine (well, noticeable VA) Dard & Ribo in 2004, 2005, or 2006.

I also agree with Joe that they make nice syrah. I can be perfectly happy drinking the wines. For myself, nice syrah is not enough if you have terroir like Hermitage and decent St. Joseph. I get the mark of the producer more than the terroir. This is not what I'm looking for.

In that sense, Souhaut wines are more forgivable since the teroir isn't as hallowed, but those wines are even more marked by rampant hipsterism.

While I have no doubt that people can sincerely like these wines on their own merit, they really don't have a draw for me.


Monkies have magical powers.Go to top of page

MLawton


543 Posts
Posted - 01/28/2008 :  13:47:40  Show profile
VLM,

I'm having a tough time decoding anything from what you are saying other than "hip=bad".

What is it exactly that you are looking for these wines to be that they aren't? Other than un-hip, of course.

Feel free to give examples.

I'll give some specifics...Hermitage and St. Joseph are both pretty big appelations, St. Joseph is in fact enormous. I've had a lot of wines from both and toured both areas extensively and there's enough variation/diversity of what comes from both areas that I'm not sure I can with certainty say that I know what Hermitage or St. Joseph should taste like. I can certainly say what I'd like them to taste like (Chave), but that's certainly not necessarily the same thing.


Edited by - mlawton on 01/28/2008 14:31:08Go to top of page

vulgar little monkey

Iceland
2548 Posts
Posted - 01/28/2008 :  14:47:30  Show profile
quote:
VLM,

I'm having a tough time decoding anything from what you are saying other than "hip=bad".

What is it exactly that you are looking for these wines to be that they aren't? Other than un-hip, of course.

Feel free to give examples.

I'll give some specifics...Hermitage and St. Joseph are both pretty big appelations, St. Joseph is in fact enormous. I've had a lot of wines from both and toured both areas extensively and there's enough variation/diversity of what comes from both areas that I'm not sure I can with certainty say that I know what Hermitage or St. Joseph should taste like. I can certainly say what I'd like them to taste like (Chave), but that's certainly not necessarily the same thing.


Edited by - mlawton on 01/28/2008 14:31:08


I don't mean to imply that hip=bad, nor to imply that Dard & Ribo are faddish in the worst sense.

What I am calling hipster wines are my reaction to wines that are produced as a matter of a certain philosophy. I find many of these wines to be more marked by philosophy than by terroir (the philosophy that I favor).

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claude kolm

USA
1833 Posts
Posted - 01/28/2008 :  14:57:46  Show profile  Visit claude kolm's home page
Waht you have to realize about Hermitage is that it is not one terroir, it is multiple terroirs which can be blended to produce a great wine. But in order to do that, you've got to have a core of the great terroirs to begin with. The only longstanding producers who have that primary material allowing the potential for a great wine (not saying that they all achieve it) are: J-L Chave, Chapoutier, Delas, Jaboulet, Faurie, Marc Sorrel, Cave Cooperative. There is a new producer who previously had been with the cooperative who also has well-sited vines, but I've not had the opportunity to taste them yet.

The rest may make very good wines considering their material, but they can't make great Hermitage.

Claude Kolm
www.finewinereview.comGo to top of page

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